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Responding to a Meme Challenging the Christian Nation Thesis

1/6/2017

18 Comments

 
As I was scrolling through facebook yesterday, I came across this meme in my news feed:

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Usually, I just roll my eyes at these kind of attempts, but I was a little bored that morning, so I decided to actually find the original sources of the quotes and write a response.  Here is what I posted as a reply to this meme:

1. "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law"

Jefferson was referring to the common law of England which he identified as the collection of laws which existed prior to the Magna Carta.  He was not referring to the laws of America.  Here is the context from which your quote was taken:

"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law, or lex non scripta, and commences that of the statute law, or Lex Scripta. This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here, then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it. If it ever was adopted, therefore, into the common law, it must have been between the introduction of Christianity and the date of the Magna Charta. But of the laws of this period we have a tolerable collection by Lambard and Wilkins, probably not perfect, but neither very defective; and if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

2. "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"

Jefferson never said this.  What he actually said was:

"This was the real ground of all the attacks on you. Those who live by mystery & charlatanerie, fearing you would render them useless by simplifying the Christian philosophy,– the most sublime & benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man,– endeavored to crush your well-earnt & well-deserved fame."

This is an excerpt from a letter that Jefferson wrote to a dissenting minister from England named Joseph Priestley.  Both Jefferson and Priestley believed that the doctrines preached by Jesus Christ had been corrupted by the mainline churches of Christianity.  Priestly even published a book entitled "An History of the Corruptions of Christianity" in which he attempted to trace how various perversions of Christ's original doctrines had taken place throughout history.  Neither Jefferson nor Priestly claimed that Christianity was corrupt in itself.  Rather, they argued that the mainline churches had perverted the gospel of Christ just as Paul had warned in Galatians 1:7.  Jefferson viewed Christianity as a sublime and benevolent religion which had often been perverted by those desiring to twist it to fit their own purposes.

3. "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

This was never said by Adams or any other American.  It comes from a very poor attempt to translate from Arabic into English a letter written by the Dey of Agiers to the Pasha of Tripoli.  I devoted an entire chapter of my book Hidden Facts of the Founding Era to discussing this quote and the many errors surrounding it.  You can read that chapter online for free at this link.

4. "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

Thomas Paine had practically no influence on the formation of America.  He was hated and despised by most Americans, and when the founding fathers discovered that he had been imprisoned in Parris during the French Revolution, they wrote to each other that it would be best if he spent the rest of his years rotting in a French cell.  Paine's only claim to influence in the American Revolution was the pamphlet "Common Sense," but that pamphlet was actually commissioned by Dr. Benjamin Rush who oversaw it's writing and recommended it to other leaders of the Revolution once it met with his approval.

5. "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together."

Madison was discussing the question of whether we ought to have an established religion.  Here is the context from which your quote was taken:

"Notwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Govt. & Religion neither can be duly supported.

"Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst. And in a Govt. of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject.

"Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

"It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; And that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion ... The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom; and a continuance of their example since the declaration of Independence, has shewn that its success in Colonies was not to be ascribed to their connection with the parent Country. If a further confirmation of the truth could be wanted, it is to be found in the examples furnished by the States, which have abolished their religious establishments."

Madison was not objecting to the idea of establishing a government on religious principles which is what most Christian mean when they claim that America was founded as a Christian nation.  He was simply opposed to the establishment of a state religion.  By the way, the concept of a separation between church and state is itself a religious concept which was introduced into America by the Baptists.  As I wrote in my book "Hidden Facts of the Founding Era":

The concept of true freedom of religion was introduced in America by the Baptists of Rhode Island.  George Bancroft, the famous American historian, recorded that in November of 1658, the colonists of Rhode Island requested that Roger Williams plead their case before the king that they would 'not be compelled to exercise any civil power over men's consciences.'   They declared that it was their goal 'to hold forth a lively experiment, that a most flourishing civil state may stand, and best be maintained, with a full liberty of religious concernments.'  The king consented to their request, and in July of 1663, he signed the Charter of Rhode Island which included the following statement:

'Our royal will and pleasure is, that no person within the said colony, at any time hereafter, shall be any wise molested, punished, disquieted, or called in question, for any differences in opinion in matters of religion.'

Then, in May of 1664, the legislature of that colony passed the first law in American history which established true religious freedom.  That law stated that:

'No person shall at any time hereafter be any ways called in question for any difference of opinion in matters of religion.'

In May of 1665, the legislature reaffirmed this law with a statement declaring that religious freedom had been granted in Rhode Island ever since Roger Williams began the settlement there in 1636.  Their statement said:

'Liberty to all persons, as to the worship of God, had been a principle maintained in the colony from the very beginning thereof; and it was much in their hearts to preserve the same liberty forever.'

And then in 1680, they issued yet another statement declaring:

'We leave every man to walk as God persuades his heart; all our people enjoy freedom of conscience.'

...After relaying the above facts about Rhode Island, Mr. Bancroft wrote: 'Freedom of conscience, unlimited freedom of mind, was, from the first, the trophy of the Baptists.'


By the way, Roger Williams and the Baptists of Rhode Island were influenced by Thomas Helwys, a Baptist preacher in England who wrote the earliest recorded defense of religious freedom in the English language.

18 Comments
Alan
9/21/2017 08:01:45 pm

The atheist or secular humanist you cite refers to Jefferson who was a rationalist, deist, Adams a Unitarian, Paine an atheist and Madison who was referring to government dictating doctrine as in PRC. Of course these gentlemen appear to not support Christianity. As you rightly stated you'll find quotes from all of them praising Christianity. Typical of atheist, secular humanists who don't know and study American history.

Reply
Jonathan Kiviniemi
10/2/2018 03:31:49 pm

Found the angry Christian who can't stand to have their myth challenged or face the fact that we aren't a Christian nation so instead falsifies information to fit their narrative.

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Ron Duncan
6/27/2022 12:23:32 am

Found the angry atheist who can't stand to have the misquotes meticulously and historically researched and confesses through projection instead.

Seriously, he gave full quotations for the context. If you must go so far as to claim that factual history is falsified information, nobody will (nor should) take you seriously. You're the kind of atheist that other atheists disavow and make them question their own worldview.

Reply
PhoenixMichaels
1/21/2019 08:09:01 pm

Ah yes, Christianity... the American Taliban. "Oh yes" they insist, "America was created just for US, by US... CHRISTIANS!!!" Now that their teeth have been pulled, and rational discourse on the absurdities of monotheism can be freely exchanged in this brave new world, the Christians squirm without the power to put dissenters to the sword. On your way out guys.

Reply
Bill
8/23/2022 07:36:47 am

I think you missed the part about religious freedom being a Christian doctrine.

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Greg Logan
7/24/2024 09:59:03 pm

Bill,

As a Christian theist, I must admit - I hear you waxing quite "humanistically"...

The white American evangelical community is NOT about religious freedom - once they are in power....

Let's try to put the Hindu Holy Book up with the Bible down there in Texas in the public school classroom - and find out how far that "Christian" freedom works....

You and I both know the answer.

Colleen
4/16/2019 02:11:15 pm

So, why do you not acknowledge that the Thomas Paine quote is from Common Sense, the essay the fo7nders *liked*?

Why do you not acknowledge that our laws were strongly based on British laws, the ones that weren’t Christian?

Why do you wave your hands to show that they didn’t think the Christian system was bad, when they said that it was? You are picking nits. It was then what it was THEN. What it used to have been is irrelevant.

Just because someone had a religion, their idea it should be separate from government doesn’t make it a religious idea. It just makes it the idea of a person with a religion. Jews think so, Muslims think so, wiccans think so...

Reply
Bill
8/23/2022 07:50:59 am

Did you read the part where I said that the quote was from Common Sense and that Common Sense was not Paine's own work. He was commissioned to write it by Dr. Benjamin Rush, and Rush personally oversaw the writing to make sure that it said what he wanted it to say. I even included a link to an article documenting this fact.

And if you were to check out the book page on this website, you would find a free book titled "The Bible and the Constitution" which addresses the rest of your comments in great detail.

Reply
Allen Thornburgh
12/14/2019 03:34:33 pm

Thank you for doing all this research for those of us who are so tired of the constant attack on Christianity with garbage facts. I found this false meme on a FB thread where the question was asked if "In God We Trust" (our Country's Motto) should be placed in schools. A quick search showed this link. Thanks again!

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Michelle-Paulette
2/18/2020 11:22:44 pm

Actually both Jefferson and Paine were Deists. like Most of our founding fathers. (See Jefferson Bible, And Thomas Paine - age of reason)

Also, while you are correct Paine was very much disliked during his time, 1 woman and 2 freedmen attended his funeral , and in life was labeled an Atheist in a time where the average uneducated people and even some of the smartest) were very religious. While many Of the founding fathers were not theists, but rather deists they very much did at the very least believe in some sort of
creator deity, To explain the mystery of life and how it seemed everything had “it’s place” (Before evolution laterally explained how this can come by natural means)

Liked or not , despised or not, it Turned out he was right about a great many things. He before Washington, Jefferson, Madison, or even Franklin, sought independence from the Divine right to rule claimed by the crown.

He was also a very staunch abolitionist, who pushed very hard against slavery being permitted in the US from its founding, and did not himself own slaves. So unlike many other founding fathers, (looking at you Jefferson and Washington!) he wasn’t nearly as hypocritical.

He also supported women’s equality, something very few at the time did.

He advised the french during French Revolution not to kill the king and queen , or they would be no better. And would be guilty of the very immorality They were supposed to be against, an act for which he was imprisoned. And as he warned, it descended into chaos, what we now call “the terror. And yes, washington left him to rot. Fortunately Robespierre head came off before his own.”

He also advised Jefferson to Buy louisiana.

You seem to have a Distain for Thomas Paine, and would like to see ”the most useful Englishman to ever live” blotted out from history it would seem.

He earlier on, played a signifiant role influencing many of our founding fathers, pushed for policies that latterly , historically, turned out to be spot on and far ahead of his time. But he was by far the most critical of religion.... ohhhhhhhh... I bet that’s why your distain for him is so clearly “self evident”

Reply
Bill
8/23/2022 07:59:57 am

If you think that I have disdain for Paine, you should read what the founding fathers wrote about him. Adams is a good case in point. Adams wrote of Paine that: "such a mongrel between Pigg and Puppy, begotten by a wild Boar on a Bitch Wolf, never before in any Age of the World was suffered by the Poltroonery of mankind, to run through such a Career of Mischief."

And in another place, Adams wrote of Paine that "His political writings, I am singular enough to believe, have done more harm than his irreligious ones. He understood neither government nor religion. From a malignant heart he wrote virulent declamations, which the enthusiastic fury of the times intimidated all men, even Mr. Burke, from answering as he ought. His deism, as it appears to me, has promoted rather than retarded the cause of revolution in America, and indeed in Europe. His billingsgate, stolen from Blount's Oracles of Reason, from Bolingbroke., Voltaire, Berenger, &c., will never discredit Christianity, which will hold its ground in some degree as long as human nature shall have anything moral or intellectual left in it."

But I think that Gouverneur Morris provided the perfect response to your comment. He wrote of Paine: "shall we be amused by the paltry tales of this person's importance? I hope not."

Reply
James B. Elmore
9/23/2021 02:15:38 pm

OMG...our common law is based on English common law. Thus the argument above by the author is less than honest. I won't bother the others; it's simply the author's intent to rebut in any way he can without really eliminating his personal bias before making his conclusions. Understandable, but of little use.

Reply
Ron Duncan
6/27/2022 12:26:59 am

Strange... so providing the context which proves his point is somehow.. less than honest? Since when is correctly identifying context bias? I'd find bias more in those who pretend that context neither matters nor exists.

Reply
Mvbr
6/22/2022 02:02:23 pm

Ah yes, the Christian trick of “well what that MEANT was”. Same trick used to twist grotesque parts of the Bible.

If you have to write an entire chapter in a book to explain away one line, may I present the idea of Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is often the correct one. None of the above men were Christian, yet you’re trying hard to suggest they wanted the nation to be a religion they did not practice. That is bizarre to me?

Could it not be they had REASONS to not follow the religion they did not follow? Why does it upset and offend Christians so much that some Founding Fathers did not follow or respect your faith? Is the grasp on your religion so fragile that you must change history?

Reply
Bill
8/23/2022 08:09:03 am

I prefer Newton's formulation of the razor:

"We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, as far as possible, assign the same causes."

Newton recognized that a valid solution must be both true and sufficient. My review shows that the meme does not meet the first of those requirements. It is not true.

Reply
Jeff
8/18/2022 06:38:28 pm

As for #3, that text is plain as day in the ratified Treaty of Tripoli. The entire US congress ratified those words, and president Adams signed the treaty containing those words. Of these examples, this one carries the most weight about the early intentions of America and Christianity cause it wasn’t just one man’s opinion. It was the official ratified words of the United States government.

Reply
Bill Fortenberry
8/23/2022 08:26:41 am

I'm guessing that you didn't read the article that was linked in my explanation for that quote.

Reply

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    Bill Fortenberry is a Christian philosopher and historian in Birmingham, AL.  Bill's work has been cited in several legal journals, and he has appeared as a guest on shows including The Dr. Gina Show, The Michael Hart Show, and Real Science Radio.

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